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The medical and scientific communities sure aren't perfect, either...

[Warning: This isn't a "funny" post. Every once in a while, if you can believe it, I take something seriously. This is one of those times...]

A few of you may have noticed that I recently posted something in which I did a decent job of not disguising my feelings regarding all this religion business. The post itself was actually aimed at the lame sales method employed by the man that I've come to refer to as the Used Jesus Salesman, but there was a jab in there that obviously went a bit further than just the topic at hand.

The ensuing discussion was heated to say the least. I'm certain I lost a couple (hundred) readers, but that's all right. The conversation was some of the more interesting I've engaged in with my fellow geeks (and non geeks as well) since I started this stupid web site.

While thinking about all of this earlier today, it dawned on me that some of my comments might have made it look as though I have an undying devotion to all things secular. Some negative comments were made about "doctors and scientists," and I jumped on them in a pretty unbalanced way. It wasn't at all unlike the way MS/OSS/Java/.NET zealots blindly defend their "team." Thought I'd undo a little bit of that apparent blind devotion today.


This week at the conference, I spent a lot of time with Ian White. He's been a long time "blog friend," and this was the first opportunity we've had to hang out in person. He's from England, but now lives in the US. Nice guy with a slightly different perspective.

We went out for Indian food today (Ian jokes that the English invented it), and we somehow got on the subject of American medicine. He finds it absolutely fascinating.

What really confuses me is that I'll be watching TV, and a commercial will come on for a medication, and I don't know what it is. It has some strange name like "Peblorium," but they never explain what it does. At the end, they tell me that I should ask my doctor about it. Why should I ask my doctor about it? Do I need it? I've sometimes thought that I should gather the names of all these medications so that on my next trip to the doctor, I can ask him, "And what about this one? Do I need it? No? OK. Well, what about this one here? No? That's a surprise. Let's move on to the next one then..."

I don't watch much television, but on the few occasions that I turn the thing on, I feel like I'm pretty much being assaulted by the ads like the ones Ian was talking about. It seems so bizarre to me that there's this notion that people should be exposed to advertising for medication that addresses conditions which:

1) Are never mentioned

2) Almost certainly wouldn't apply to them

This is every bit as bad as the Used Jesus Salesman. The Used Jesus Salesman tries to convince me that I have a hole in my life that can only be filled by some religious system in which I have no interest, and the pushy pharmaceutical company thinks it's all right to get me thinking that I have a condition which can be treated by one of their expensive pills. Either way, there's a pusher involved. It's pretty messed up.

Ian also mentioned that your average UK hospital doesn't have the facilities to perform MRI scans. This blows me away since I come from an area where MRI scans are directly advertised to consumers. It's as though getting an MRI should be as regular as your bowel movements. At various bus stops throughout Portland, you can find ads from a company called "Open and Advanced MRI" which ask the question: "Do you need an MRI?"

I had to ask myself if these ads were for real. It's highly likely that the only way you're going to know that you need an MRI is when your doctor tells you it's the case. But we now have ads at bus stops prompting us to stop and think about whether or not such a service might be necessary. It's like something you should do casually while fishing for exact fare in your pockets. Let's see... I need a quarter. Do I have a quarter down there? Wallet... Keys... Fluff... Oh. Maybe I do need an MRI. Ah - there's that quarter...

That creeps me the hell out, and I think it's in pretty poor taste. An ad for a Big Mac is one thing, but an ad for a $900.00 (as those of use who have paid for them out of pocket know) service that you probably don't need is the product of one messed up marketing department.

And that's just the marketing. Ian and I also discussed some differences between medicine in the US and socialized medicine elsewhere. I don't want to talk about cost and the increase in my already freakishly high tax bill, but rather about one particular quality of socialized medicine that makes a huge difference: As a medical practitioner in socialized medicine, your pay isn't based on your clientele. There's one place where this changes everything, and that's the mental health field.

When I was about twelve years old, I was basically being told by my teachers that I was an idiot. I never did any homework, and I tended to not pay any attention in class. This wasn't because I was trying to be a jerk or anything, but simply because I was bored. School is overwhelmingly dull. The kind of fun you could have on your own with a computer, and the kick ass things you could learn on your own really made school look bad. School had to compete with the worlds of BASIC, C, assembly, the BBS, riding my bike, and the discovery of that wonderful, wonderful thing called Pornography. This made the days between bells drag.

Some of my teachers got together at one point, though, and had a little conference among themselves. It was decided that something had to be done with Problem Boy. They called my parents, said I was stupid, and suggested that something be done with me. This started a long cycle of self-doubt. I started to think that maybe the teachers were right.

A couple years later, my self esteem was shot. I was feeling low, but I had also recently heard of these things called "psychiatrists." I decided I wanted to go see one, as they were supposed to be like a special sort of doctor that took all your negative thoughts and obliterated them.

So, I got set up with a psychologist. Since it seemed doubtful that I'd need any sort of medicinal treatment, it was decided that I could just go for the pure counseling. The idea was for someone in the mental health profession to talk me out of my funk.

After about thirty minutes of my first session, my new psychologist summed the situation up pretty plainly. She told me that I was extremely depressed, in need of serious help, and that she suspected I was borderline psychotic. I'd have to come in for counseling on a regular basis.

"Wow. I'm crazy," I thought.

A couple weeks later, she decided that it would be helpful to get me on some meds. As previously mentioned, she was only a psychologist, so she couldn't provide me with the hookup, but her husband, a psychiatrist in the same practice, conveniently could. Not only could he help me more than she could, but he'd do it for only twice the price. Perfect!

To make a long story short, I was placed on Wellbutrin, a "Selective Dopamine Reuptake Inhibitor" for several months. I felt like I was smoking crack, more confused than ever, and I certainly didn't feel any better. Unfortunately, according to my shrink, I was getting worse, and it was likely that I'd be seeing him for quite some time to come.

"Wow. I'm nuts," I thought.

After a bit more of this, I suddenly came to my senses one day and saw how I was being manipulated. I familiarized myself with the medical concepts of depression, psychosis, and so on, and realized that I didn't even remotely fit any of the profiles, nor had I ever. The truth is that I was just having a bad time at school, going out of my mind with boredom. I immediately stopped with the meds, and told my "doctors" where they could stick it.

Something tells me that, had I seen a socialized shrink, none of this would have happened. To this day, I really can't comprehend the kind of sleazy mentality that would push someone to take advantage of some kid and tell him that he's on the edge, going nuts, and ready to lose it Jeffrey Dahmer style.

When I was younger, I didn't just have doubts about God. If this post is any indication, I'm not at all blind to the reality that there are people in the medical and scientific communities who are all too happy to take advantage of other people for a few bucks.

God didn't stop my mother's stroke, and some bad apples in the mental health profession nearly got me believing that I was dangerously insane. There are problems on both sides of the argument, although it doesn't change which side I'm on. At least I know whose nuts to kick when it's a human that's screwed me over.

Published Sunday, May 30, 2004 12:00 AM by Rory

Filed Under:

Comments

 

Andy said:

Speaking from a purely "quality of service" standpoint on socialized medicine. I have lived in three countries for extended periods where I had to partake of their socialized medicine. Finland where I went to highschool, Canada where my brother and mother went to University, and England where I was stationed for 18 months. In Finland I had nothing major just allergies and an ear infection. The service was great and I got all fixed up in no time. Canada I had to have my thumb sewed back together after I severed it in an accident. Again great service my thumb works fine now. England I got transfered to a British hospital because the tiny base where I was at couldn't handle surgery like I required. Not going into to details but the British hospital had to stabalize my condition until I could be flown to another US base where they could finish putting me back together. They had me pumped up on a lot of pain killers but from what I remember they were very nice people and hey I'm still alive so they must have done something right. So based on the care I recieved in three completely different countries all with socialized medicine I am completely for it and I wish we would socialize medicine here in the US.
May 30, 2004 12:45 AM
 

Avonelle Lovhaug said:

"Something tells me that, had I seen a socialized shrink, none of this would have happened."

Or perhaps, you never would have gotten care, because you would have been on a waiting list. (Of course, if you aren't really crazy, that's just fine. However, if you need a heart transplant, waiting isn't necessarily a good thing.)

My observations of our medical system aren't stellar, either. However, I think it is wrong to judge an entire system on anecdotal evidence. And the most important thing to keep in mind (no matter where you get your care) is that you are responsible for your own well-being, not your doctor. If they tell you something that doesn't make sense to you, continue to question it until you are satisfied. And feel free to get a second opinion.
May 30, 2004 1:18 AM
 

Ron Green said:

Rory...
It's a dangerous system.I'm glad you survived.
May 30, 2004 2:14 AM
 

Dave Donaldson said:

I'm usually one who can say what other people want to say (but won't/can't), but you just do it better than the rest of us. Press on dude, press on :-)
May 30, 2004 2:17 AM
 

paul said:



These days being crazy is the only way not to go insane.
May 30, 2004 3:26 AM
 

Rory said:

Andy -

"Not going into to details but the British hospital had to stabalize my condition until I could be flown to another US base where they could finish putting me back together."

Um. Whoah.
May 30, 2004 3:39 AM
 

Rory said:

Avonelle -

"Or perhaps, you never would have gotten care, because you would have been on a waiting list."

That's true, but once I finally made it in, I think there's a better chance that I would have received "treatment" which lined up much more with my needs than what I got in the States where I was basically just used for a paycheck.

"My observations of our medical system aren't stellar, either. However, I think it is wrong to judge an entire system on anecdotal evidence."

I totally agree about the anecdotal evidence, but this is a fairly personal post. The point was really just to show that I don't trust *anybody*, and that the same skepticism exists whether I'm looking at religion or science - I'm an equal opportunity hard ass :)

"And the most important thing to keep in mind (no matter where you get your care) is that you are responsible for your own well-being, not your doctor. If they tell you something that doesn't make sense to you, continue to question it until you are satisfied."

Completely. But, remember that I was fourteen at the time, and on the receiving end of a barrage of negativity from my teachers. As much as I'd like to paint myself as some strong willed tough guy who didn't put up with any crap, the truth is that after a couple years, I started to believe what they were telling me, so I wasn't at *all* surprised to receive more bad news from the psychologist. I figured that if I was stupid, it was entirely possible that I was stark raving mad to boot.

"And feel free to get a second opinion."

I did. It was her husband :|

If I were to have the same problems now, I wouldn't put up with the same crap. As an adult, I finally understand how things work (kind of), but I didn't have a clue when I was a kid...
May 30, 2004 3:46 AM
 

TJ said:

Damn Rory thats messed up, suprising? not really. The amount of crap that people out there like to feed to you and me is unbeleiveable.

I mean a while back there was this big ritalin craze, if you kid acted even the little bit hyper the solution was ritalin. Uh hello, most kids are hyper, thats why we call them kids and not adults.

And I got to agree with you on the medical system its a joke. Its all about cash flow, money changing hands. The doctors I have been in contact with at these large hostitals are just like robots. Do they give a rats ass that my grandma had a heart attack and her health is degenerating? No just keep her hooked up to the machines and feed her drugs. Hospitals give me a bad tast in my mouth, when I die Id like to be at home if I get to choose. Hospitals just care about how many beds they got free and charging you for the IV that cost 500$.

TJ
May 30, 2004 3:56 AM
 

Avonelle Lovhaug said:

"But, remember that I was fourteen at the time, and on the receiving end of a barrage of negativity from my teachers."

Yeah, that sucks. But I think that can happen at any age. I can't believe how crappy my grandparents are treated by the medical profession. My grandma who lives locally was deteriorating rapidly last year. They had her on pain medication that made her loopy, and some dickwad doctor wrote on her chart that she had dementia. Geez - she's not nuts, she's high, doofus! My not-local grandpa was told recently that at age 96, he should expect to feel crappy. Gee, thanks. Very compassionate. Unfortunately, many in that generation are taught to revere doctors, and so they don't even push back when the doctors treat them like shit.

Also, I'd argue that the legal profession has as much to do with the problem as the medical profession. Last year I had a mammogram (oh yeah, a real fun time.) A nurse practitioner referred me to an imaging center, the procedure was performed and the results were reviewed by a doctor. There were no problems found. However, the nurse practitioner encouraged me to come back to their office for "a second opinion". You can argue that it was for the cash, but I believe it was CYA. They have to order all kinds of unnecessary tests and bullshit that pushes costs up, because they never know which dipshit is going to sue them because they didn't catch something. I blame lawyers, and every idiot who ever sued someone else just because something crappy happened to them. (Think lawsuits over spilled coffee.)

But back to your situation, yep - you were screwed. Not to minimize your plight, but I figure you got off easy. At 14, you were much better equipped to protect yourself than a 2 year old with a physical medical condition. (So much for women being nurturers, huh? Oh well, as my kids will tell you, that isn't one of my skills.)
May 30, 2004 4:26 AM
 

Joshua Allen said:

Do you really believe that socialized doctors would have less conflict of interest, or would be more trustworthy? IMO, the only mistake you made was to put too much faith or trust in your doctors in the first place, and this would be equally dangerous in a socialized system.

There is no substitute for taking an active role in your own matters, and this applies to financial advisors, legal advisors, etc. as well as doctors. The conflicts of interest are going to be there no matter what, so you need to be very engaged.

In a capitalist system, the conflicts of interest are often about money, so it's more obvious. But the fact that materialism is so overt means it's easier to deal with. In socialist systems, the conflicts are there as well, just different. For example, a doctor may have an incentive to do a particular procedure because the chair of the medical department has staked his career on a particular thesis and intends to get promoted to the governing medical council. And if his subordinates don't support his thesis, they don't get promoted, either, and so on. In fact, on net analysis I would theorize that the socialized systems have much deeper conflicts of interest specifically *because* the conflicts of interest are less transparent, and harder to track than simple "materialistic greed".
May 30, 2004 5:35 AM
 

Rory said:

Joshua -

"Do you really believe that socialized doctors would have less conflict of interest, or would be more trustworthy?"

Yes, but it's all based on my own experiences. I realize that it's entirely possible for things to go the other way, but they haven't where my life has been concerned.

"There is no substitute for taking an active role in your own matters, and this applies to financial advisors, legal advisors, etc. as well as doctors."

Of course. But, at fourteen years old? After getting railed on by teachers telling me what a fuck up I was? At the risk of sounding human, I'll admit that I wasn't exactly on top of the situation, and was willing to listen and trust others to get to where I thought I needed to be.

Things are different now, though. Over a decade has passed, and I've learned a thing or two.

Anyway, the post is really about demonstrating that you can't trust *anybody*. Some people took offense to how I feel about religion, and some among those seemed to think that I had openly accepted science/medicine/etc. into my life without some sort of scrutiny. Just pointing out that this isn't the case.
May 30, 2004 5:48 AM
 

Anonymous said:

Yours is a sadly common story in this age. You behaved like a creative, intelligent child and because you didn't conform they put you on meds.

The medical establishment is great if you break your leg or something very physical like that, but for everything else...beware.

The drug business is big and industry is powerful. Examples:

Why do they put fluoride in drinking water when there is no evidence that fluoride helps prevent tooth decay? Huh, did I say fluoride is bad for you? Yup, just do a search on google. Fluroide is a by-product of industry and a billion dollar business.

Why do dentists xray you every 6 months or year? Answer, because they can bill for it. Do you really think you need to be xrayed that often? There are studies that show a small percentage of the population get cancer from common x-rays like dental ones.
May 30, 2004 12:21 PM
 

Joe Grenier said:

Rory -
Is it possible that your doctors weren't necessarily motivated by greed, but by incompetence? This doesn't change your basic point about not blindly trusting *anyone*, but there seems to be this perception that doctors of every sort are infallible, so if they do something that is not in the best interest of their patients there must be some mercenary motivation. No doubt there are greedy health care professionals out there; there are also just plain crappy ones.


May 30, 2004 2:27 PM
 

mike said:

>advertising for medication

Don't confuse (too much) the medical establishment at large with drug companies. Big Pharma has exactly one motivation, namely $$$. They advertise drugs to sell them. "Ask you doctor about ..." has to do with what they're legally allowed to say in TV ads. I believe the theory is that they are not allowed to diagnose -- "Depressed? Ask your doctor for XAML!", heh -- the manufacturer cannot legally match your condition with their drug, because that's a doctors job. That said, pharma companies spend a lot of time and money cozying up to doctors so that doctors _will_ prescribe their product. If pharma companies aren't advertising in other countries, it's only because of legal constraints.

As for medicine at large, most doctors would admit that it's not an exact science. Doctors realize that many conditions take care of themselves, and that they're primarily treating symptoms. (People go to doctors all the time for cold and flu, two illnesses that doctors can do nothing about except make you feel better.) The history of medicine, especially in the 20th century and especially starting with penicillin et al, has been one of developing tools that can actually fix medical problems. Of course, doctors don't come right out and say that when you're in their office, which is why you virtually always get a prescription, no matter what your problem is. People who have undergone the inconvenience of actually going to a doctor want _something_ for their trouble, and leaving empty handed feels unsatisfying to most people.

The issue of medicating children is a thorny one. But doctoring works like other professions -- periodically a new thing will come along and it will become widespread. (Can we think of any other profession in which a new fashion sweeps through every decade? Hmmm.) When it was discovered that Ritalin, yer dopamine uptake inhibitor poster child, seemed to help some kids who had this newly diagnosed thing called ADHD, then golly, it looked like a miracle cure. When you have a hammer, all problems look like nails. So doctors being doctors, and medical fashion being like any other professional trend, lots of jumpy kids were diagnosed with ADHD and given Ritalin. There's no hard-and-fast test for ADHD ("the bloods tests are back, and ..."), so a lot of medical professionals were swept up in this new thing, probably much encouraged by the manufacturers of Ritalin.

It certainly helps to be an informed consumer and at least understand why a doctor is prescribing a particular treatment and what it does. Unfortunately, using the Web as a resource does not necessarily make one an objectively informed consumer. (Viz comments earlier about flouride, etc.) For virtually any substance you can ingest there is probably a web site devoted to trumpeting its evils and how that substance is the tool of communists, terrorists, big business, a cabal of aliens, whatever. Sugar, aspertame, Ritalin, carbs, fats, milk, beef, gummy bears, Twinkies, x-rays, sunscreen, contrails, mind-bending rays beamed from spaceships parked behind the moon -- you're sure to find a web site warning you about these. Some are probably more accurate than others.
May 30, 2004 4:56 PM
 

Joshua Allen said:

"Of course. But, at fourteen years old? After getting railed on by teachers telling me what a fuck up I was?"

Yes, I totally agree with that part. I had basically the same experience throughout grade-school; I was incredibly bored, and my teachers perceived my disengagement (or maybe ADD) as a direct insult. The things my teachers said and did to me were downright abusive; from forcing me to skip recesses and stand in the corner two hours a day during second grade, to making me sit on the floor without a desk for my entire fifth grade year -- and plenty of things in-between I would rather supress.

Kids are defenseless against that kind of abuse. Just like with medical advice, parents need to be very engaged in their children's care, and don't place undue faith in the school system or teachers to always do what's best for the child. My parents didn't really get involved, and most of the time had no idea what was going on (as if I was going to tell them). But maybe they should have.

Anyway, my point was more about the relative merits of socialized system. It's not as if the abusive teachers I had were abusing me to make a buck, for example; their conflicts of interest were much deeper. I think the mistake is assuming that people stop behaving out of self-interest when cash is removed as an incentive. The self-interest is always there. And IMO, systems where cash is deprecated are the most corrupt in the world; because the self-interest gets manifested as backscratching, nepotism, paranoia, and so on.

May 30, 2004 4:59 PM
 

Jeremy Brayton said:

Rory I feel your pain. While boredom in the school system didn't happen until 10th grade, I fell under almost the same trap.

Luckily my parents know me more than the teachers so they also trust my judgement. They noticed I was having issues. I told them my exact reasons: I moved from a school system that had higher standards of education. I moved from that to a country town where their primary focus seemed to be agriculture or to grow up like your rich parents who bought you your nice BMW.

My brain could handle more than they were giving me, yet they had the gaul to call me dumb, stupid, or whatever word they could think of. The simple truth was I was bored with their way of life. This town bred only 2 types of people and because I didn't fit either type (independent thinker) I was ridiculed as much as possible.

"That creeps me the hell out, and I think it's in pretty poor taste. An ad for a Big Mac is one thing, but an ad for a $900.00 (as those of use who have paid for them out of pocket know) service that you probably don't need is the product of one messed up marketing department."
A MRI just to get one usually isn't covered by insurance. There has to be a reason before a doctor will aprove such a procedure so that insurance will fit the bill. Insurance is a whole other can of worms I can't get into now because I have some serious issues with them, as most people do.

Rory I think you're perfectly fine for your views. You should question things and trust should be earned, not given freely.
May 30, 2004 7:11 PM
 

Catatonic said:

This post, along with the previous post, reminds me of Julia Sweeney (a.k.a. "Pat" on Saturday Night Live). She used to be a Catholic. Her brother got cancer, and had no medical insurance. Less than a year later, she got cancer too and her brother died. She believed it was all part of God's plan. But then, some Mormons came to her door and asked her if she believed that God loves her. This actually made her start questioning her beliefs and she became an atheist!

She has a blog now - unfortunately is done in Flash, but I still think it's worth a read. (http://www.juliasweeney.com/)
May 30, 2004 10:39 PM
 

Steve Severance said:

I just returned from a radiology conferance in British Columbia where I heard a suprising figure. Over dinner someone told me that the waiting list for an MRI in BC is 13 months. I was shocked. 13 Months? Here I am lucky if I have to wait more than a few days. There are also only two MRI scanners in BC. The hospital I work in has two. The new one we bought has every special attachment for cardiac imaging known to man. In BC doctors simply don't have access to technology like that.

I think that one of the things that sets Ameruca appart from the rest of the world is the fact that we don't have socialized medicine. In my opinion it should stay that way.

Alot of people will hate me for saying this but I don't think that having advanced surgery for cancer or being on some expensive medication is a god given right confered to everyone. Advanced health care is very very very expensive. I don't think that everyone should have it not because I don't like them but because I don't tink that it is my responsibility to pay for them.
May 31, 2004 3:45 PM
 

Steve Severance said:

One more thing to the person that says that you can get cancer form dental x-rays send me the article. Modern equipment uses doses that are so small the don't pose even the slightest bit of risk. So send me the article please.

BTW I am involved in a large dose reduction study for CT scans right now so I do know what I am talking about.
May 31, 2004 3:48 PM
 

Eduardo said:


<quote>
Is it possible that your doctors weren't necessarily motivated by greed, but by incompetence? This doesn't change your basic point about not blindly trusting *anyone*, but there seems to be this perception that doctors of every sort are infallible, so if they do something that is not in the best interest of their patients there must be some mercenary motivation. No doubt there are greedy health care professionals out there; there are also just plain crappy ones.

User: Joe Grenier
</quote>

Joe: I agree with you, some doctors believe that they are some sort of Gods, that can cure you of anything.

Sometimes they see some kind of disease (that don't exist) just to cure it.

Sometimes, they can't stand failing curing you, and just keep trying until you're fill of pills with all the colors in the rainbow.




May 31, 2004 5:00 PM
 

Rory said:

Steve -

"Over dinner someone told me that the waiting list for an MRI in BC is 13 months. I was shocked. 13 Months? Here I am lucky if I have to wait more than a few days."

I agree that 13 months is too long, but if it were an option that some people could take, then it ought to be available.

There's nothing wrong with mixing socialized and privatized medicine.

"There are also only two MRI scanners in BC. The hospital I work in has two."

I live in Portland, Oregon, and I think we probably have about 900,000 MRI scanners. I'm obviously exaggerating, but we still have quite a few.

Who do you think is footing the bill for those? When I needed an MRI, it was $900 out of pocket (I can't afford "real" health insurance, so I pay cash - it might sound like a lot, but I still wind up paying less than I would if I had full coverage rather than the emergency stuff that I never get to use).

"I think that one of the things that sets Ameruca appart from the rest of the world is the fact that we don't have socialized medicine. In my opinion it should stay that way."

I think we should have both. I also think we should adopt the system used in many other countries that allows pharmacists to provide prescriptions for common conditions. I used to get sinus infections *all the time* when I was younger (stopped when I was about 20 for some reason). Every visit to the doctor was another $65 and another reason in my medical history to charge me high insurance premiums.

In Paris, I could just walk into a pharmacy, explain that I had a sinus infection, mention that I had a clear history of them, answer a few questions, and get something to clear it up. Not only that, but the drugs would be *affordable*.

"Alot of people will hate me for saying this but I don't think that having advanced surgery for cancer or being on some expensive medication is a god given right confered to everyone."

We aren't just talking about "advanced surgery." If I need to have my appendix taken out, then I'm going to be fucked financially, and this goes for many other Americans.

When you have appendicitis, you pretty much *have* to have it removed. You aren't guaranteed the infection that could kill you when it bursts, but you'd be an idiot to ignore it.

So, if I need to have my appendix taken out but can't afford to, should I be denied treatment?

That's *really* fucked.

"Advanced health care is very very very expensive. I don't think that everyone should have it not because I don't like them but because I don't tink that it is my responsibility to pay for them."

There is *no* excuse for the state of health care in this country. Have you ever gone through the CIA World Factbook and looked at the stats related to health for different countries?

You want a shock? Take a look at Cuba, and then take a look at America.

With our resources, there is absolutely no reason at all that things should be as they are.

Another messed up fact about American health care: The people who can actually *afford* health insurance can probably also afford to pay for a lot of services out of pocket.

So, if your policy is that poor people should be allowed to go sick and possibly die just because they can't pony up the cash, and if you really are as greedy and selfish as you sound, then I think you're right about people probably having negative feelings towards you. And why shouldn't they? You're only thinking about yourself.

The only consolation, I suppose, is that health care might begin to become somewhat affordable as we see the jobs of, oh, I don't know, *radiologists* being sent abroad. Maybe then you'll change your tune a little.
May 31, 2004 8:03 PM
 

Anonymous said:

from mike's post: "For virtually any substance you can ingest there is probably a web site devoted to trumpeting its evils and how that substance is the tool of communist..."

Your reaction is typical, and true. But that doesn't mean they're all weirdos as you implied by "Some are probably more accurate than others". My comment about fluroide stands.

As for the dental x-rays, just do a google search!

The moral here is to simply use your God-given common sense. For example, how could anyone think that any amount of x-rays is okay? We still get them though because we think the benefit of the x-ray out-weighs the risks, right?

I'm not saying never to get dental x-rays but if I have a perfect medical history; brush, floss, rinse with Listerine every day and always get a great dental checkup -- then what the heck do they think they're going to find in an x-ray? "Well, you never know", they say. No, you don't, but I think I'll pass for the next few years at least, thank you.



May 31, 2004 9:00 PM
 

Dominic Cronin said:

Generally, British people have their MRI removed when they are very small. (A bit like American boys routinely having the ends of their penises amputated.) This means that we never need to have our MRIs scanned at all. The few machines available in British hospitals are there simply as a courtesy to visiting foreigners.
June 1, 2004 7:17 AM
 

some dude said:

The MRI being removed comment was very funny.

I laughed rather loudly.

Thank you Dominic.
June 1, 2004 2:47 PM
 

Steve Severance said:

Actually radiologists are being sent abroad. To where might you ask? To India of course. Actually this will not lower prices as insurance companies set the rate that they pay per study.

Rory: I hope that in the end this country reaches a happy median that is not at either extreme. One of the things that has made medicine great in this country has been the innovation and that have been made. Other countries benefit greatly from advances that are made here that you and I pay for. Its not that I don't want people to have healthcare, its that I fear that the system would end up as more of a disaster than Medicare. I really don't think that we could get it right. Really I would like to reach some middle ground on this as you say, 'I think we should have both'. On the otherhand i not willing to say pay an extra 5-10% of my income to get such a system.
June 1, 2004 4:00 PM
 

jwill said:

I grew up in Canada, and agree with Steve - the US should keep away from socialized medicine, and for reasons other than higher taxes. My experiences haven't been that great, like when I shattered my index finger in a bicycle accident when I was 8, the doc I saw taped it up with hockey tape as told me not to use that hand for the next 2 months. When I went back to visit last year my dog didn't recognize me and bit me square in the cheek (of my face that is). When I went in to see the doctor, he looked at it and said "yep, that's going to leave a mark" and that was it. I don't think the doctors are bad, just way overworked and underpaid.
June 2, 2004 2:41 PM
 

Joshua Allen said:

"So, if I need to have my appendix taken out but can't afford to, should I be denied treatment?"

Show me where that has happened in America. If your appendix needs to be taken out, it will be taken out, regardless of ability to pay. If you have spent much time in an ER of any large city recently, you will have noticed that well over half of the people there have no insurance and no means to pay (and probably 25% do not even have citizenship), yet they receive treatment. It's unimaginable to me that someone with a need to remove appendix would be denied service.

"You want a shock? Take a look at Cuba, and then take a look at America."

Do you trust statistics published by the Cuban government? I recall that China had the lowest rate of SARS in the world for a time, too.

"In Paris, I could just walk into a pharmacy, explain that I had a sinus infection, mention that I had a clear history of them, answer a few questions, and get something to clear it up. Not only that, but the drugs would be *affordable*."

There are plenty of OTC sinus medications availabe in the U.S. too. I had very bad luck with getting medicine for sinuses in Paris, since none of the stuff I knew would work was available, and the stuff the pharmacists gave me wasn't working. Probably more a result of the geopolitical boundaries than of "socialized" medicine, but at least personally I would take OTC in the U.S. over the crap the Parisian pharmacists push any day.
June 3, 2004 6:15 AM
 

Mark said:

Eversince i got internet connection at home, I've never turned my TV on.
October 7, 2005 10:21 AM
 

Andrew Spark said:

Health care is a great importance to many individuals and we need to work on improving health care for all.
March 29, 2006 4:08 AM
 

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August 12, 2006 10:38 PM
 

TrackBack said:

Outwardly Normal 2
June 12, 2004 9:55 PM
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