I'll fly out there tomorrow and defend us and Red Hat. You guys seeded the CLI as an ISO standard when it was really just bait for patent and IP lawsuits.

http://tuxblog.sitespaces.net/

http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=193501763

"Novell is acting as a proxy for its customers, and only its customers," Ballmer said. "If they [businesses] want patent peace and interoperability, then they'll have to look to Suse Linux."

I have a board meeting on the 10th and I go to London on the 15th, so any time before that. Our fragmentation of Gnome, renamed will not have mono extensions. I will have our company remove the hooks you tried to stick into Linux for the benefit of mankind. Shame on you Microsoft, SHAME ON YOU.

Beer -

Look... I'm going to tell you something, but before I tell you what I really want to tell you, I'm going to tell you a few other things which are very much *facts*.

Facts:

- I'm not your enemy. Whatever animosity exists between you and me was caused by *your* behavior. We had never met - had never spoken - and yet you came over here to slam me, slam my video, and slam Channel 9. I responded in kind because, frankly, you're an incredibly pompous asshole when you want to be.

- You achieve *nothing* for "your side" by coming around here and dumping your vitriolic bullshit. If you want a fight, you'll get one, but it's certainly not *my* goal to turn every post into a flamewar.

- You have a "siege" mentality. You think people are constantly attacking you when it's *you* doing all the attacking.

Here's the deal, then. With that out of the way, I want you to know that you would be more than welcome to be on the show. In fact, I'd like it - we need "outside" perspectives, and yours is about as outside as it's going to get.

That said, if you're on, you have got to be somewhat civil and realize that we're not out to get you. We'll listen - we'll be respectful. I'll forget about all the below-the-belt bullshit you've pulled on me, and we can start over from scratch. I'll make sure that you get to say what you want to say.

But...

BUT...

Whatever aggressive behavior, and whatever insulting, childish shit you dish out, you must expect to receive in kind. I think I've pretty well demonstrated that I have no problem dealing with trolls and hecklers.

If you want a conversation, though, and if you want to be on Channel 9, and if you want to talk directly to people from Microsoft, then I'll happily make that happen. Seriously.

So let me know.

You can email me at roryb AT thecompanyyouhate.com (replace "thecompanyyouhate" with microsoft).

Just remember that I'm very serious about the behavior - if you start up with the ad hominems and attacks, you'll get it all back.

If, on the other hand, you're civil and respectful and want to engage in a *real* conversation, you'll find that we're not actually all that bad.

I'll be waiting for your email.

sent. If you did not receive it, let me know
The subject was: "Your offer"
I can be there before the 9th of this month or after the 23rd

Chris -

I got your email (it went to my junk folder - probably because of the word "offer" in the subject).

Responded. Since "offer" is still in the subject, you might want to check your own junk folder.

- Rory

Ror-dawg,

Again man, excellent Pilot. Room for improvement of course, but definitely some amazing potential, and the host kicks ass! Anyway, you should consider doing this as a pod-cast too, since there's no visual-requirements so far. I could listen as I work, without the temptation of watching video :)

Keep up the excellent work.

Jonathan Sampson

hey Rory, you crazy nut, when am I going to see you now that you have migrated north to the emerald city?

Should be interesting to see if he really shows up.  I have actually had civil conversation with the guy lets see how he acts on camera.

rjdohnert,

I became aware that there are certain things that can not be discussed if you do go to be taped on C9 in my email exchange. I proposed to Rory, that we do a tape independent from Microsoft and it be broadcast on his personal website instead of Microsoft's in order to free ourselves to do a really, really good interview.

It's just an idea, but I think it would solve a lot of legal problems that these interviews with non-MS personnel can possibly create.

Beer on Five on 9... That would be interesting to say the least.

This will be my last communication to you,

You seem to think you can change what the corporate guys do at your company. I have seen the MS corporate team, and I serious doubt it, but here goes.
2 things you should change at Microsoft if you can(but you can't).

Microsoft has been using scare tactics to keep their monopoly going.
They funded or lied about funding Baystar/SCO, and in consequence the SCO felt good enough to attack and threaten to sue even individual Linux users.

NOW, they are scaring people by offering an exclusive indemnity to Novell customers on stuff like Mono, where they said the CLI was an ISO standard like C or C++ that anybody could use to make an interpreter. Or OO2, where the reader can rw to .doc and other MS formats.

This is what keeps Linux companies from being able to sell to the public or enterprise sectors. It is a very real and effective form of an anti-trust breach on the part of your company.
Microsoft can not compete with Linux based on fact or technical/programming features when it comes to business value, so they resort to this approach out of pure lameness and desperation.

Level the playing field a little and try to get them to stop. Mmmmmkay....?
As if the suits are going to listen to you!
Thanks,
Chris - BCS

I hope he can relaxed and have a good time, it’s not af it Steve Ballmer will be jumping up and down and throwing chares  .  

"Microsoft can not compete with Linux based on fact or technical/programming features when it comes to business value"

Why is it that this line is trawled out time and time again and yet most of the people I speak to (it's not 'board meetings' of course - I'm not that important) people in charge of IT or parts of it, or Development or parts of it at a number of global 1000, blue chip, government, defense and global SI's see HUGE value in Microsoft over Linux because it's easy for their staff to use.

Thats not to say they don't run Linux (the do) but on the desktop, and in a lot of server situations as it happens, Microsoft is their choice.

Their reason?

Not everyone who works in IT is a geek. In fact *most* of them aren't.
I meet people who are responsible for huge deals for their company, working with their own customers on really complex technical issues and yet asking them to say, set up, or even explain how a web server works leaves them stumped.

The simple fact is that Microsoft makes it really easy for these people to use a PC to get their job done. Doing their job means their company makes money.

*That's* the business value Microsoft has over Linux. Non technical people just get it, and can be effective using it.

Urgh. I just joined an OS war. I feel grubby..

Ian,

Not to mention that us technically-inclined people STILL decide to use Windows for agility purposes and its speed in getting whatever job done in a timely manner. Not to mention that it builds that clean bridge between the tech-savvy folks, and the not-so-tech-savvy folks.

I can develop and app, and pass it off to a less-knowledgeable person to study. I don't have to expect that person to learn a new OS in order to get caught-up enough to begin studying my app.

Let's face it. Linux is cool, it really is - but it's nothing compared to Windows when it comes to business-oriented.

The PHP/MySQL/Windows Guy,
Jonathan Sampson

Well, you know if you just need a mediocre person to discuss things sometime to show how brilliant everyone else is...or you're running low on guests or whatever, I'm there for you as a backup.

Jason O., Chris Williams, David Weller and Andy Dunn on XNA Development and the future of gaming with me as an alternate. How's that for a sweet 5 on 9.

(i should probably login sometime when i post these things, but it's just so much WORK!, plus how many george's are there?)

Just want to say I love the dialog you've got here.. this is why you're so good for Microsoft.  I mean, maybe I wouldn't call people names *but* it seems you guys have a relationship that can handle that.

I'd love to see this interview as well.  Another suggestion, have a 3rd party do it.

Beer... you may want to stay home.   You're too incompetent to be a voice for the side you've chosen (or any side for that matter.)   I've read many of your posts.  If you want to do what's best for your side, trust me, stay home.

plink, plink

"This is what keeps Linux companies from being able to sell to the public or enterprise sectors. It is a very real and effective form of an anti-trust breach on the part of your company.
Microsoft can not compete with Linux based on fact or technical/programming features when it comes to business value, so they resort to this approach out of pure lameness and desperation."

Linux reaches as far as it can reach.   It's not because of impedence caused by Microsoft.   The people who would consider using Linux in the enterprise don't necessarily choose Microsoft.  In fact, most of them choose Unix, instead of it's bastard child.  

Are you a tech with delusions of grandeur?  That's what I've found most Linux zealots to be.  

I have nothing more to say to you, because I would be wasting my time.  Just as you waste your time.  Go play on some opensource topic discussion groups and be productive for a change.  Maybe if more of your kind would spend more time developing the Linux platform (if you can), then Linux could make a bigger dent in the enterprise market.

Your biggest argument should be why you're not a loser for wasting your time like this.

I hate the Windows/Linux war.

I hate it with all my heart. I used to fight it back when it was the Windows-OS/2 war, or the Windows/NetWare war, until it dawned on me that these idiot boxes are *tools* to get *other stuff done*, not the objects of veneration that so many religio-fanatics have chained their souls to.

Time and again I tried, in various companies, to recommend Linux, because it cost nothing and the patches seemed to come a bit faster. Time and again I stopped myself from recommending it, because the only people who would maintain Linux had a stick up their backsides about this or that particular distro and how you'd have to employ an impersonable jerk in order to maintain it. Or install it. Or modify it.

And of course I've seen the same fanatical arrogance from Microsofties over this or that bit of nonsense. Refusing to fix documented bugs in components distributed with VB6, two months after the release of VB6. The same attitude with a monstrous memory leak in Retained Mode D3D. The blind idiotic arrogance of every single person on the DirectShow and WMF development and documentation teams, with their half-thought-out COM interfaces, anemic documentation, and their apparant vow to never, ever, ever expose their stuff to the CLR and the managed environment. And I could go on for. freaking. ever. On any side of any tech war. Gnome/KDE. OS X/Windows. AIX or Amdahl. Such a waste.

It would be such the better world if you kids would all just geek out about *computers* and leave the turf wars behind.

Paul -

"Just want to say I love the dialog you've got here.. this is why you're so good for Microsoft.  I mean, maybe I wouldn't call people names *but* it seems you guys have a relationship that can handle that."

I was against the name calling, but didn't anticipate it. When it happened, I just tried to stop it. It wasn't a big deal, though - the guy who did it is a very good friend of mine, so it was easy to push on through.

It also served to set some ground rules for future episodes.

Such as: No name calling :)

"I'd love to see this interview as well.  Another suggestion, have a 3rd party do it."

The interview isn't going to happen.

Beer28 is looking for trouble - not a conversation.

So it's over.

Also... aren't we supposed to hang out soon? Get in touch, yo!

Rob -

I hate the Windows/Linux war, too.

I wanted to have Beer28 on the show as a sort of peace gesture.

But, as I've been saying, the guy doesn't seem to want peace. He wanted to go on and on about what a bad company MS is. That's it. No peace.

Which means: No show.

Rob,

Hear hear!  Just think of all the keystrokes wasted!  All of the immently valuable coding time!  Seriously, if I could somehow tap into all this time spent bashing each other I could draw 3 or 4 paychecks of just getting stuff done and still find time to take my wife out AND STILL play playstation.

And if anyone ends up with carpal tunnel, remember all the times you foamed at the mouth and piled your opinion on top of all the others so you could "inform" the geniuses reading slashdot.  

yes, i'm here in the US & A until friday morning but staying in seattle all week.  let me know when around

"Linux reaches as far as it can reach.   It's not because of impedence caused by Microsoft.   The people who would consider using Linux in the enterprise don't necessarily choose Microsoft."

For individuals you have a point, but Microsoft has done many things that deter enterprise and public sector customers:
http://opensource.feratech.com/halloween/halloween10.html
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=555641

and more recently:
http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=193501763

If there are Linux packages that violate Microsoft IP, let them make a clear public document stating those conflicts and allow Linux vendors to remove them. It's up to the IP holders to bring forth complaints. They should do so in a timely manner that allows vendors to remove or examine any claims in a standardized fashion.

MS never before said that they would sue or threaten users based on mono, and now they've changed their position, so it must be removed. Linux vendors need to know, explicitly, all packages which have IP that needs to be examined.

The baystar story did not work out for Microsoft, so that chapter is over.

Once we have a nice *clean* OS free from hysterical threats, we can move forward and simply forget about Microsoft and let them pass into the past where they belong.(with their various IP documentation of course).

We can remove .doc support from Open Office, ect.., but we need MS to bring forth a list of their grievances and let us get rid of their ugly and putrid formats and specifications, and leave them behind for good.

"You're too incompetent to be a voice for the side you've chosen"

I'm on the side of our company, period. Linux is a software package, it is not a company or entity. I do not represent it. I represent our company and to an extent, Linux users on SiteSpaces social networking site and the groups I run on Red Hat's Mugshot.org. As far as me being incompetent with Linux, I think you have no idea what my qualifications are. They are pretty impressive, and so is my work record. In January I will also have my RHCE.

Beer28 -

"If there are Linux packages that violate Microsoft IP, let them make a clear public document stating those conflicts and allow Linux vendors to remove them. It's up to the IP holders to bring forth complaints. They should do so in a timely manner that allows vendors to remove or examine any claims in a standardized fashion."

Bullshit.

It's up to *you* to make sure you aren't violating any laws in implementing a particular technology.

Microsoft has gotten nailed by this before. Your company is no different.

And, when it comes to things like the differences between the CLII and the CLR, it's the fault of the person doing the implementing - *not* Microsoft. We made it very clear what the differences were between the CLI and the CLR. If you can't be bothered to figure it out based on the available information, and if you can't be bothered to read the CLI spec, then that's your problem - not ours.

Maybe if you guys over on the Linux side of things spent a little more time innovating and less time straight-up copying, this wouldn't be such a problem.

Beer28 -

"As far as me being incompetent with Linux, I think you have no idea what my qualifications are. They are pretty impressive, and so is my work record. In January I will also have my RHCE."

Tough shit! If you want to dish it out, then you better be able to take it.

You admitted to me yourself in an email that the only reason you came here and started slamming me and pestering me was that I was an MS employee. Aside from that, you didn't know anything - yet you decided to call *my* value into question.

Then, on your own site (which nobody reads), you insulted my entire team *and* misrepresented us by indicating that the people in the video to which you linked were the people who develop Windows. We're not. We're the people who get the word out on it.

So, whatever you're getting is just what you've given.

And, in the future, if you don't have anything intelligent or nice to say around here, I'm just going to start deleting your comments. I've never done this in the past, but it isn't a rule, and I have no desire to see the quality of my site taken downhill by your inane contributions.

I swear. Each word you type makes a distinct "plopping" sound as though you're just shitting out of your brain.

Absolutely worthless, uninformed, bitchy, and unwilling to take what you spread. You're like a human virus, going around and poisoning every potentially decent conversation on the net.

At this point, I've lost my patience, and you can just piss off - either on your own, or through my moderation of your posts.

Best. Reply. Ever!

Glad to see that you have the cojones to counter the Beer28 guy. I've just started reading your blog, after you mentioned it on c9, but I will make it a daily visit. :)

Looking forward to seeing more vids, really enjoyed 5-on-9.

The Dave -

Thanks.

And, it doesn't take much to counter Beer28. In my opinion, he's a complete jack-ass who does nothing but try to ruin the day for other people.

Glad you liked 5o9 - I think it's going to be a lot of fun as the project evolves :)

By the way, I have to ask, which software/system thingy did you use to make the byline overlays (where the names and websites of the guests appeared) for the pilot of "5 on 9"?

Also, get a better set, if you can. They looked cramped.

Rob -

"By the way, I have to ask, which software/system thingy did you use to make the byline overlays (where the names and websites of the guests appeared) for the pilot of "5 on 9"?"

Adobe Premier Elements.

Pretty good for $75 (I got it in a bundle with Photoshop Elements for $150).

"Also, get a better set, if you can. They looked cramped."

No problem. With my budget of $0, I'll run right out and do that :)

I *am* looking for a less cramped area, but it's actually tougher than it seems.

"I *am* looking for a less cramped area, but it's actually tougher than it seems."

Aren't you guys on the MS campus? Why not use one of the conference rooms? Seen some videos for the Vista beta shot in one of them and it worked out fine.

The Dave -

We actually have a great spot in our own building - I'm going to shoot the next one there. I'm a little worried about reverb, but hopefully I'll have lapel mics by then.

I'm still very deeply wondering why Beer goes out of his way to harass people, just because they are Microsoft employees.  He bitches about Microsoft intimidating/bullying people, yet he goes to blogs, Channel9, and bully's people, as you put, just because they are MS employees.

And it seems like it's not because he is causually there, but that he goes out of his way to find and troll.

The thing that is really stupid, it appears as if his knowledge of Microsoft is very limited, yet he spews non-stop rhetoric crap like he's read every internal company memo.

Tim -

"...yet he goes to blogs, Channel9, and bully's people, as you put, just because they are MS employees."

Actually, and this is the "funny" part, *he's* the one who said that he came after me "just because" I'm a Microsoft employee.

Great, eh?

"And it seems like it's not because he is causually there, but that he goes out of his way to find and troll."

Yeah. It's pretty cool.

"The thing that is really stupid, it appears as if his knowledge of Microsoft is very limited, yet he spews non-stop rhetoric crap like he's read every internal company memo."

Agreed. He's been bitching at length about the CLI being a "trap" for OSS types, and he's using Mono as his example.

Of course, there's a partial *CLR* implementation on top of Mono, and that's the problem. The CLI is different from the CLR. Beer28 doesn't get this. At all.

I've explained it to him, but... he's pretty thick.

- Rory (speaking to Beer28)
"you're an incredibly pompous asshole"

So are you Rory, but your ass looks much better, so you get away with it ;)

and about the Microsoft/Novell thing going on: I love it, I've never been able to choose between them and now I don't have to anymore. Well. I didn't have to before but now it's official.

It's not nice when two of your best friends fight with each other. You can never invite them together and all that. But now it's one big hugfest, I'm in happyland.

"but try to ruin the day for other people."

It's like the soul-stealing sword of Elric of Melnibone in Michael Moorcock's Elric series. Only less cool. Much less cool. As in a 'the soul-stealing sword is ffing cool and B28 is the exact opposite in a mirror universe kind of way, like Elric and rory are like 0 Kelvin cool and B28 is like the core of the sun uncool'-kind of way, if you get my drift.

Uh, if I'm not mistaken Novell admitted to approaching MS in this ordeal...so what the hell are you bashing Microsoft for? Your boys came to them, dude.

Jonathan Sampson
www.SampsonResume.com

Keep up the great work Rory :)

But I must say that that Beer28 dude adds even more hilarity to your blog (and the C9 web).. at times he is more funny than Borat! :)  How someone can be so totally clueless and outright hostile and very outspoken about it, is just beyond me.

... I'd pay to see a Nine show with that guy on :D

ummmm...did you see my offer to participate on your show? Wasn't sure if the crazy ravings obscured the fact that some people were actually responding to your request rather than going on a magical balloon ride.

Great job on the show. Channel 9 is perfect for you.

"Linux violates patents, but he has no idea what those are. Chose Novell to be safe, but for no apparent reason that can ever be stated. Ballmer is a monkey, a big bald monkey, and nothing more. And he represents your company as the CEO. "

It's very ironic (and confusing) to me, that you, the complete moron that you are, talk about Steve Ballmer representing the company as ceo, and using how he acts like it's a bad thing for the company.  Have you seen the way you act beer?  You are a total dis-service to the linux/oss community, and ANYTHING you represent.  You try to lead with an axe, making baseless threats to people, and you seem to never respond to any question asked.  You're response to questions always ends up being the same total crap.  I know you run such a huge corporation, your site having the millions of users that it does (laugh), does your publicist write out what you should say when people ask you questions?

Sorry Rory, It's just too painful to stand by and watch this total idiot act like a bafoon and do such a dis-service to everything that is open source.

Hey, all -

The conversation's going to start looking a bit weird because I'm removing Beer28's posts as of this morning.

He's just saying the same old crap, and it doesn't contribute anything here.

George -

I *did* see your request, and you would, of course, be more than welcome to come on :)

I think you'd be great on the show.

I'm a lady-geek...

Tee -

"I'm a lady-geek..."

Are you saying you'd like to be on the show?

I would if I lived anywhere near Seattle...but you know me, there aren't too many things I wouldn't like to do.  It's that damned curiosity thing...

Tee -

Ah.

Too bad...

Rory - Well that was fun reading. Popped in for just a second to see what's new and started down the list of comments. . . and then had to check out the posts on Channel9 CoffeeHouse. . . and now it's over an hour later. It's way past my night-night time, but this was too engaging to stop reading. Give Paul a wedgie for me when you see him.

Is there a way to be on the show in spirit?

Tee -

You could close your eyes and try to wish yourself onto the show.

Or astrally project.

Either will work.

A cheaper, and more reliable option is to get a six foot carboard cutout of yourself made, and post it to Rory.

I'm sure he'll be able to work it into the background somehow.

I would do this myself, but it's bad enough one six foot version of me going around, and getting a 2 dimensional simalcrum made is something nobody needs.

"The conversation's going to start looking a bit weird because I'm removing B***28's posts as of this morning."

That's called surrealism. Surrealism is good. Especially when it's created without intent. Unintented surrealism. Better than intended realism. Realism is already there, no reason for intent.

I'm down with the projecting.

The closing of the eyes thing feels a little too desperate...ya know?

I think u look kind of gay

"I think u look kind of gay"

I hate people sometimes... I really do

Ugh. Rory, you're killin me. I went to the MSDN event yesterday fully expecting to bask in the wit and glory of Rory. I couldn't even turn in a orange sheet with any score I was so depressed, when I found out you no longer do them. I just went to McMs and drank instead of finishing the seminar. I'm sure the presenter is a great guy, but it's just not the same.

"I think u look kind of gay"

You wouldn't be the first to think so.

Many others have also found me charming, sophisticated, and well dressed.

The Dude -

"Ugh. Rory, you're killin me. I went to the MSDN event yesterday fully expecting to bask in the wit and glory of Rory. I couldn't even turn in a orange sheet with any score I was so depressed, when I found out you no longer do them."

Sorry :|

Couldn't take it anymore. I'll never write about why I left, but...

Yeah. I'm much happier now.

(Though I *am* sorry that you're stuck with someone else for the presentations - I know what that can be like.)

notengo@notengo.com -

"I think u look kind of gay"

Oh, goodie, let's start that one all over again.
No, let's don't. Let mind the harbor.

[yeah, ok, that's an adpated, tweaked, out-of-context Frank Zappa quote]

my new computar came in this week while i was in philly. ready for a race?

"my new computar came in this week while i was in philly. ready for a race?"

Look, bitch - I'm getting an XPS. Whatever silly little machine you got t'ain't gonna be *shit* compared to the incredible box that's being built for me right now.

The shipment might even be delayed since I think my laptop wants to take a detour through Florida to kick your laptop's ass before it comes out here.

I'll send you a box of tissues with which to comfort your pussy little box, ho.

Showing off your hardware muscles ? I run Sun Creator2/ NetBeans/ Eclipse/ Photoshop/ VS2005/ Oracle/SQL Server with only 512 mb of ram. :D

Rory said:
"Tee -

You could close your eyes and try to wish yourself onto the show.

Or astrally project.

Either will work."

Maybe you're a cylon =)) (You said you wach Sci Fi series in a vid :D)

ok, be-atch. my computar is laffing its ass off as your computar is still being built.

however, it would love to have your sexy fast computar come by for a drink or two and perhaps spend the night on the beach and let the sparks fly, if you know what i mean.