in Search
Welcome to Neopoleon - Sign in | Join | Help
Navigation: Home | Forums | Galleries

To the Best of Our Knowledge: Consciousness - Part One

As I've slowly gotten my brain back from the addiction I kicked, I've been using it more and more. As odd as it may sound, thinking is kind of a novelty for me right now. So is the enjoyment of activities simply for the sake of enjoying them.

Before, when I was getting my kicks with morphine, you could have thrown sand in my eyes, and I probably wouldn't have even flinched. I was disconnected from the world. Disconnected from the world in the same way Paris Hilton is disconnected from her virginity (which is to say: very).

I spent most of my early years growing up in Portland, Oregon, and, like any other healthy childling who has spent most of his life in one place, I was sick of it. Portland has many merits, but it didn't matter. It was too familiar, and that made it dull.

I fixed that problem by taking off for London, and then for continental Europe. Went to school over there, traveled around, took trains through the most beautiful mountains and valleys I've ever seen, woke up in strange places, was spoken to in strange languages, and ate some strange salmon (it was in a can and had the consistency of butter - I lived on it for a while because it was cheap and easy to smear on bread for a nice salmon-butter sandwich).

When I finally came back to Portland, my family met me at the airport, stuffed me in a car, and drove me home.

Although the city hadn't gone through any major structural changes while I was gone, it looked completely different to me from the city I had left. The town looked brighter, the streets looked smaller, the leaves on the trees looked greener, and I probably looked surprised.

The time away gave me the perspective to be able to see what was good about a town from which I previously wanted to escape.

The time away from my head, then, that I experienced during my little junkie phase gave me the perspective to be able to see what was good about the mind from which I previously wanted to escape.

I'm making a mess of my condo. The place is littered with books, magazines, DVDs, video games, and everything else I didn't take the time to enjoy while loaded.

One thing I've been digging is a radio show I found while browsing Audible called "To the Best of Our Knowledge." It plays on NPR, and it's a deeply satisfying way to spend an hour.

It's an odd thing. It isn't a news program, nor is it a traditional talk show.

It runs twice a week (from what I can tell), and each show has a theme. The theme is then explored in conversation between the show's hosts and various guests. The conversations happen one at a time, and are then edited together to form a sort of debate. The guests are arguing with each other, but they don't know it.

I haven't been able to figure out what the show's bias is. The conversations sometimes sway far to the left, and then sometimes far to the right. They bring on scientists, philosophers, personalities, theologians, and whoever else might contribute something interesting to the mix.

For the most part, I love it. A typical talk show reveals its bias very quickly. Think Rush Limbaugh. You know whose side he's on.

This one's different.

The one gripe I have is that, in the shows based around philosophical, scientific, or religious themes, there's an alarming lack of critical thinking. An atheist will make a point, and the host will argue the point. Soon after, a theologian will make a grandiose claim about The Fabric of the Cosmos without any supporting arguments and the host will just reply with an "Oh, that's lovely" (or whatever). In the end, I'm afraid it leaves listeners with an unbalanced viewpoint. It feels like most of the supernatural based ideas win out over the scientific, but do so thanks to the show's editing rather than the strength of the cases made by each side.

One of the episodes I listened to this week was on the subject of consciousness. It might be one of the toughest subjects out there - and I mean it. It's such a bizarre thing, and we have so little knowledge with which to attempt to explain it that it's hard not to sound like a bunch of teenagers smoking pot around a campfire and talking about the possibility that "we all might just be living inside, like, a giant's toenail. Hey, man... don't eat all the Doritos." If you've never been one of those teens around the campfire, the discussions I'm talking about here are the late night entirely fabricated theories about the nature of reality, or some other similar subject that's obviously so simple that it could be tackled and solved by a handful of kids who have temporarily pulled the ground out from beneath their IQs.

I was shocked at how the subject of consciousness was treated on this show. I expect a lot of conjecture and ambiguity around such a topic, but the things they chose to air... yeah. It worried me.

While there was some rational talk, such as Daniel Dennett's comment that the problem of consciousness is wrapped up in "lots of puzzles" but "not many mysteries," the bulk of the show wasn't quite so sensible.

The show began with this question: "Does the mind have an independent existence apart from the brain?"

This question was followed with: "Come to think of it, is there any way to answer that question?"

The subject of consciousness is some heavy stuff, but it seems pretty simple when you throw a couple short questions at it.

So, what came back?

I'll write a follow-up post this weekend in which I deliver some of the insanity from the people on the show.

I'm doing this in a follow-up rather than one gigantic post for two (2) reasons:

1. To enjoy my writing, your attention span must be taller than this post.

2. To give you all the opportunity to play armchair philosopher with the two questions. It's what I'm going to do in the next post. I love playing armchair philosopher, and I think I'm really good at it. I manage to be pretentious and offensive in nearly equal parts whenever I share my inner thinkage.

Tah for now.

Published Friday, June 08, 2007 5:00 PM by Rory

Filed Under:

Comments

 

zbt said:

GDMF cliffhangerpost ...

HURRY UP!
June 8, 2007 6:11 PM
 

Rob Miles said:

The best (and probably most meaningful) thing that I ever heard about consciousness is that we aren't actually conscious. We just think we are.
June 9, 2007 2:22 AM
 

Leo said:

1. No

2. Yes (I just did)

:-)
June 9, 2007 9:04 AM
 

nksingh said:

I've taken a few philosophy classes at a pretty decent school (it has a highly-ranked philosophy department), but I unfortunately only heard this gem from a friend:  "Well, [if you apply logic like that] then we have nothing to argue about.  We might as well just quit."

The problem with metaphysical philosophy, as I see it, is that the questions that its practitioners try to answer are either trivial and dressed up in non-obvious language, or too twisted to be useful in the world.  The exploration of consciousness is a metaphysical discipline, so one might expect it to be full of obfuscation and unclear thinking.  The word itself is relatively ill-defined.  

To answer the questions:
1.  The mind currently does not have an independent existence from the brain because in a sense it is a hard-wired program built into the wetware of the brain.  Perhaps we'll be able to build some sort of cyberbrain technology that will allow us to capture the state of a person's mind and then make the mind independent of the brain.  Whether this is feasable or desirable is another matter entirely.

2.  How to answer the question:  find a way to retain a person's personality, memories, and thoughts independently of her brain.
June 9, 2007 10:22 AM
 

Ian said:

"Disconnected from the world in the same way Paris Hilton is disconnected from her virginity (which is to say: very)."

Ok, if nothing else this proves you're back!
June 9, 2007 1:37 PM
 

ak said:

The Indian philosophical system is of the belief that mind does have an independent existence, apart from brain.

Good to see you back Rory! Rock on.
June 10, 2007 2:10 AM
 

Chris Wisehart said:

Have you read any Ravi Zacharias?  He is very enlightening on this topic.
June 10, 2007 7:53 AM
 

billmauz said:

Rory - If only you would continue your podcasting perhaps I would have a reason to carry on with my pathetic sleep inducing cubicle slavery... your wisdom on all matters of gutted fish and anti-canadian fervor give me reason to turn up the ipod and ignore the monotony of my otherwise pointless corporate wheel-spinning
June 11, 2007 12:02 AM
 

Massif said:

Here's a similar question.

Does software have an independant existance from hardware?

You see, both mind and software are inherently reliant on the brain / hardware. But they pull in sources outside of the scope of the platform they exist on. (And are capable of pushing out info to outside their platform too.) But does that give them a seperate existance?

I'd say no.

Then again, I'm looking at the question from the point of view of someone who's already decided there's no such thing as a soul; and someone who firmly rejects most "out of body" type experiences as being a product of the mind's imagination.

PS: I'm back.
June 11, 2007 1:30 AM
 

Zer0Mass said:

I would say that consciousness is relative as there have been several times where I have continued to function even though I definitely not conscious.  

1. To enjoy my writing, your attention span must be taller than this post.
But what if I have the attention span of a hyperactive ferret?
June 11, 2007 8:23 AM
 

Bork Blatt said:

Very good questions. Thank you Massif, for making the link between a question like this and a worldview.

The answer to the questions will depend heavily on:
1) What evidence you choose to allow
2) What worldview you evaluate the evidence with.

If your world view is atheistic and materialistic (everything has a naturalistic, physical cause) then our thoughts, emotions, creativity, sensations, ultimately our "consciousness" is purely material - a consequence of chemical reactions, electrical impulses, and interactions with the physical universe around us. I cannot see anyone with this view coming to the conclusion that consciousness can exist outside the mind.

If your world view is theistic, or allows for the possibility of a spiritual world / universe / dimension, then consciousness could be partially explained physically, but have its center elsewhere.

I'm being vague - but I just want to make the point that your point of departure in terms of worldview colours a heck of a lot in life.

For instance - there are a lot of studies that report fantastic results like "science has found the center of the brain that produces religious / spiritual feelings" and you find that by stimulating a certain region of the brain, they got subjects to report religious / spiritual sensations. Between the lines the results are saying "science has proved that there is a natural materialistic explanation for everything - including prayer".
A critical look at this reveals the inherent bias. Scientists have also identified (with fair accuracy) the centers of hearing and sight in the brain. Could you conclude from those studies that vision and sounds are mere illusions produced by electrical activity in the brain?

Of course not! Light hitting our retinas, transformed into electrical impulses, transmitted to the brain, stimulates the visual center of the brain. The stimulus, received and interpreted by the brain, is somehow fed to our conscious being (my interpretation) and we perceive this as sight. If you stimulate these areas of the brain I'm fairly sure you would see / hear some strange stuff. This wouldn't prove that light is an illusion or a fabrication by someone's will.

How you interpret the evidence is usually heavily influenced by preconceived ideas / worldviews.

I want to finish by saying there are some questions that cannot be settled with a simple experiment. You can test gravity any time you want. Laws of motion - try em if you don't believe Newton. You can't test a persons conscious experience except by asking them about it.

(Armchair philosophising done)
June 11, 2007 8:55 AM
 

Pat O'Hara said:

It depends on what you expect from a question and an answer.  I assume from your post that you are an empiricist.  That is to say that you only believe things that can be proven by objective evidence.  If so, there is no basis for the idea that the mind may exist apart from the brain.  Of course the question is flawed because neither the mind or even the brain is defined well.  The brain at least comes down to a few permutations, but what is the mind?  Empirically the mind is nothing more than the result of chemical processes in the brain.  BTW, given this view, what is the definition of Consciousness?  Assuming that Humans are responding to neurotransmitter interactions, we are no different than dogs or slugs.  We are different only in the sense that we have more neurotransmitters and more materiel for them to interact with.

As you might imagine from my comment this is not what I believe.  What I believe does not matter to you because I am not an empiricist.

I look forward to your next column.

Pat O
June 11, 2007 9:11 AM
 

browncoat said:

I read all of your posts but I never leave any comments because I can't write very well, but you should check this online audo book out http://www.ambitgroup.com/fourth

It's kind of like the matrix in a small way but it's got it's own unique twist to it.
June 11, 2007 3:54 PM
 

JoeG said:

Pat,

"...neither the mind or even the brain is defined well."

"Assuming that Humans are responding to neurotransmitter interactions, we are no different than dogs or slugs."

In light of the first statement, the second statement doesn't follow. I agree with the first statement, but the second statement assumes that the brains of a human, dog and slug are all well understood. It also ignores the value of complexity. Are you arguing that empiricists believe a human brain and a slug brain are equivalent in complexity and function? I know some empiricists (as well as some slugs) that would disagree with you.
June 12, 2007 9:13 AM
 

Neopoleon said:

Well, hello there, friends. And hello to you, enemies. Friends of my enemies, and enemies of my friends....
June 12, 2007 8:42 PM
 

GuyIncognito said:

Thanks for turning me onto a great show/podcast.

June 13, 2007 2:16 PM
 

GuyIncognito said:

I was able to listen to the program here: http://broadcast.uwex.edu:8080/ramgen/wpr/bok/bok070211a.rm

June 13, 2007 2:28 PM
 

GuyIncognito said:

Here is another one that I think may be interesting.  I'm placing the link here for myself to come back to and for others who are interested to check out:

About: http://cttdev.gps.caltech.edu/topics/mindbrain/107/index.html#

RealAudio download: http://131.215.64.26/videos/ctt107.rm


In fact... most of these programs seem very interesting!
http://cttdev.gps.caltech.edu/videoarchive/index.html

June 14, 2007 6:48 AM
New Comments to this post are disabled

About Rory

I *own* this site, you loser.