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What a f***ing mess

Maybe I'm grumpy because I woke up this morning feeling like crap, but I somehow wound up over at Scoble's blog, which I don't actually read anymore on account of how formulaic it is, and I found this fantastic and lovely bit of writing.

I have no problem with people saying that there's a problem with Microsoft Product This or That. I'll argue, and I'll either win or lose, but it's someone's right to say it.

It's when someone turns it into a profession that it starts to bother me.

Check this out:

Microsoft isn’t going away. Don’t get me wrong. They have record profits, record sales, all that. But on the Internet? Come on. This isn’t winning. Microsoft: stop the talk. Ship a better search, a better advertising system than Google, a better hosting service than Amazon, a better cross-platform Web development ecosystem than Adobe, and get some services out there that are innovative (where’s the video RSS reader? Blog search? Something like Yahoo’s Pipes? A real blog service? A way to look up people?) That’s how you win.

Am I the only one who finds this little speech to be both:

1. Very much of the Scoble Formula

and

2. A bit ironic

I'll explain.

The Scoble Formula, if you haven't figured it out yet (after how many years?) is very complicated. It involves several different separate and unchanging types of writing. The one we see in his most recent Microsoft is teh Sucks post can be described with this (appropriately) rambling summation:

Make an "edgy" claim that makes it look like I'm taking a huge risk. Set it up by making it appear as though I'm not partisan by throwing my target company a little bone. Then move to Phase Two in which I proceed to kick the company in the stomach repeatedly. This part does not require any justification. Just some anger and opinion. Heh, I shouldn't make my attack too precise anyway, as it makes me vulnerable. Nope, just start with Sort-of-Compliment, move on to Establishment-of-Vague-Attack, proceed to the Kick-Blindly mode, and finish with Authoritative-Statement. Provided my readers trust me and don't want to do any research, this ought to work. Heh. On a slow news day, I'll just attack my own company. Or, I would if I still worked for the corporation I'm angry with today (tomorrow it'll me another - by always placing the attention on the object of my anger, I provide very little surface area for attack on my own efforts).

Yeah. Not complicated.

The guy has turned into The Sun of bloggers. On a slow news day, he'll slap a big glossy photo of Bat Boy on the cover to increase sales.

That's the formulaic bit, then. I lost interest because there's only so much bashing of every tech company in existence (who'll it be tomorrow?) I can take. Something well thought out with a reasoned argument? I can take that, but it doesn't sell subscriptions.

Now, the ironic bit... and I'll admit before I begin that I'm only writing about this because I'm pissed. Scoble has taken his visibility and used it to become a bully. He bashes everybody - not just Microsoft - and gets rewarded for it. As a result, we have these huge flare-ups that start the situations for which I've titled this post. Then, a couple weeks later, he'll write an apology or a retraction (what a f***ing mess). What'll people remember, though? You can debunk Bat Boy all you want - people still want to read about him.

Onto the irony.

Scoble has just lectured us on "how [to] win."

There's some very basic research one ought to do whenever encountering such a claim. It's hard, and it takes time, but it's the way we avoid making a mess of people's lives (yes - there are people working over at Windows Live, and they do feel it when you openly trash their work).

One question you should ask - inspired by one of Ezra Pound's guidelines for gauging the relevance of literary criticism - is this:

Has the person who is making the claim ever produced anything of equal or greater value?

In this case, given that Robert is telling us how to win, let's take the above question and fill in the blanks:

Has Robert Scoble produced a work of equal or greater value than Microsoft?

Not exactly.

Take a look at PodTech.

Yeah, I know it's a new company and that's part of the reason they're losing dough, but couldn't someone have done the homework to figure out that online video distribution is probably one of the lowest margin business opportunities available?

Scoble has written about the problems they're dealing with over at PodTech. About how, even with their commercial sponsor, they can't even break even, and don't see a time, based on their current model, when that will happen.

Every video watched is another hit to the pocketbook. The bandwidth required to serve the kind of content they provide is far more expensive than most people would ever suspect. I don't know what they're paying, and I don't know what kind of deals with may have been able to work out with their hosting company, but it's quite possible that they're blowing tens of thousands, if not much more, just on serving those videos.

There's also the cost of travel. The cameraman Scoble hired for approximately twelve minutes. The limo. The hotels. The gear. The design. The staff. The rest.

I'm not saying they won't ever turn a profit. If they can get enough of an audience that they can demand more from their sponsors, they might do all right. But I've seen how online distribution of audio/video works and what it costs.

I have some doubts about the extent to which they researched these costs.

Scoble isn't a businessman. He takes his check from his boss. That's how it's been for years and years. He's talked to people from plenty of startups, yeah, but that's not the same as doing it.

Nobody consulted me - and nobody should have - but if they had, I would have said to do audio, or even just images with text. A typical news site, but with the Scoble brand. Whatever I may be feeling about him this morning, I'm not going to deny that his name is worth something in this industry.

My guess is that Scoble and co wanted to "get in" on the growing popularity of niche video news sites. The difference is that, when you take a look at what some of the other more successful sites are doing, Scoble's videos are too long (in terms of the bandwidth it takes to serve them up). If you don't have gobs of dough in the bank, then every minute is important. By not editing out the boring bits, the videos are going up as-is, gigantic and all.

I suspect there might even be a nice pit in the center of the PodTech offices into which staff members are paid to shovel money and then light it on fire.

He's telling us how to succeed?

And poeple are listening?

What a f***ing mess.

Published Sunday, March 18, 2007 11:50 AM by Rory

Filed Under: ,

Comments

 

Robert Scoble said:

I love ironies!

Rory, go ask Jeff Sandquist how many millions of dollars have been spent on Channel 9 and Channel 10.

Now, can you prove that they make money for Microsoft?

I discovered the long-form video at Microsoft where we built up to 4.3 million unique visitors a month with NO PR, NO advertising, NO real support from the company at large.

Sit down with Jeff sometime and ask how we did that. You work for him, you should understand what Channel 9's power was -- the long-form video.

If they had been edited no one would have paid any attention to them. How do I know that? Cause Microsoft had LOTs of video editors over at studios. Editors don't add value in a world where people want to listen to conversations. And bandwidth is the least of our concerns when it comes to money flowing out (several hosting companies have offered us free hosting, by the way and if I need free hosting I can always go to Google or Soapbox).

And my video traffic is doubling every few weeks.

Did I ever say we'll never be able to make money? We have 30 corporate clients at PodTech. You only have one.

Oh, search Google for "demo of the year." Who do you see?

Me. Talking about Microsoft.

That's the problem with your formulaic hatchet job. You don't understand this industry. You don't even understand why you have a job working for Channel 9.

Ahh, the old Microsoft culture is seeping out from underneath the rug again. "If you aren't with us, you're against us and must be rooted out like all evil." That worked back when Microsoft was the only game in town and everyone needed to feed at the Microsoft trough. That is no longer true.

What value have you added to Microsoft? I haven't seen you ship either. At least I shipped 600 videos while I was there and built an audience from nothing to 4.3 million a month in two years.

Kettle meet pot. Pot meet kettle.
March 18, 2007 12:10 PM
 

Kevin Daly said:

I've personally been put off his site by the recurring "I Want To Have Google's Baby" theme.
March 18, 2007 12:11 PM
 

mrpeabody said:

To Scoble, umm... Microsofts core business is not selling advertising space on Channel9 or 10... yours is.  There is no comparison.  

Channels 9 and 10 add value to the company and provide a great service.  What value do you add via Podtech?
March 18, 2007 12:25 PM
 

ddewbofh (Dave) said:

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that it sounds like a classical case of sour grapes. That's the impression I get anyways. At least that's how I can imagine it, leaving a place for greener pastures and finding out that it's a lot harder than expected, regretting the move and then expressing that resentment by lashing out at the ex-employer.

But I'm not Robert so I can only see if it from how I think I'd react in a similar situation. No insult intended to anyone and I apologise in advance for any offence taken. :)
March 18, 2007 12:53 PM
 

Randy said:

@Rory: As usually, thank you - you've saved me the time of having to write my own response.  Especially given the comment above... I've often wonder how long it would take someone to turn on their previous employeer for the sake of a headline.  Especially if they have to purposely forget all of the praise and public "me too"-ing they've done for them... personally I'll never forget the gushing that was done over the UMPC.  *g*  Wonder how long it takes for him to bash that down too?  Either way I guess 12 months isn't bad turn around time...

@Robert: every time you stop to rebuttle someone else's opinion on a blog that isn't your own, God kills a kitten.  I mean honestly, I thought you a person better than My-Ego-Has-It's-Own_Zip-Code David Winer deja vu from it.  Talk about letting someone down.  What's next?  You become the MSMobile bash-a-blog for the Internet Services division?

Oh, and FWIW, Rory's been adding value for years via MSDN Events and before he joined Microsoft, he was adding value via blog and podcasts... I wouldn't be so quick to waiving a scorecard - after the worth of a game isn't always found in the scorecard, especially if you considering "shipping a video" something worthy of note.
March 18, 2007 12:54 PM
 

ddewbofh (Dave) said:

Oh, forgot to mention that I really enjoyed Scoble's C9 videos. So it's not like I have anything against the person and decide to express it by whining in a blog comment. :P
March 18, 2007 12:57 PM
 

Robert Scoble said:

mrpeabody: more than 200 videos posted to http://www.scobleshow.com since I've left Microsoft (one even with Bill Gates, another with John Edwards, US presidential candidate, another with Jonathan Schwartz, CEO of Sun Microsystems, another with John Chambers, CEO of Cisco. Most of my interviews are with industry leaders from across the industry. That alone is a lot of value.

But, then, I also read 600+ feeds a day and pull out the best (Google's Matt Cutts says I read more feeds in Google Reader than anyone else alive). That's 1200 items a day on a typical day (more than 30,000 per month). You can see my favorites here: http://www.google.com/reader/shared/14480565058256660224

But, let's not stop there.

I've also been working on recruiting great partners for PodTech (our network is growing quickly) and helping teach lots of companies about the new media space (talked to executive boards from Intel, Symantec, Seagate).

Quoted in dozens of magazines, newspapers, etc since leaving Microsoft. Forbes named me to its top 25 list. PC World named me to its top 50 list.

Not done yet. Helped setup BlogHaus which was a hugely successful effort at CES (Channel 9'ers even showed up, but more importantly, so did New York Times and Newsweek and FT).

Finally, since I've left I've done dozens of speeches and geek dinners all over the world.

OK, so I haven't made a billion dollars like Chad Hurley has. OK, shoot me. But there's plenty of value here.

Before Microsoft, by the way, I joined a startup with seven people and helped it grow to about 200. Rory forgets to note that when he says I haven't built anything. I also launched Radio UserLand at Gnomedex and built a blog with thousands of readers a day BEFORE getting to Microsoft. Long before it was popular to blog.
March 18, 2007 1:01 PM
 

Robert Scoble said:

>I wouldn't be so quick to waiving a scorecard - after the worth of a game isn't always found in the scorecard, especially if you considering "shipping a video" something worthy of note.

It's Rory's job to "ship video" now. I saw him last week and he was carrying a camcorder around just like I do.

I think it's VERY worthy to note and Rory adds value to my life by doing so. Are you saying Rory isn't providing value in his current role as video dude on Channel 9?

Channel 9 IS advertising! With one advertiser. I think it's funny that you think it's something else. Demonstrates the power of a long-form unedited video. It fools you into thinking it's not commercial content.
March 18, 2007 1:05 PM
 

Robert Scoble said:

Oh, and lest you think I only bash Microsoft since leaving Microsoft. Do a Google search for "Demo of the Year" and see what comes up. Here, I'll do it for you. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Demo+of+the+Year&btnG=Google+Search
March 18, 2007 1:05 PM
 

Gone Shopping said:

<vent>

>"If you aren't with us, you're against us and must be rooted out like all evil."

disclaimer: yeah i work at micro*cough*soft.

>Ship a better search, a better advertising system than Google, a better hosting service than Amazon, a better cross-platform Web development ecosystem than Adobe, and get some services out there that are innovative (where’s the video RSS reader?

Have you *used* live search recently? it's f'n brilliant. Image search is THE BEST image search interface. the main search engine - as good as googles - didn't used to be. hotmail/live mail beta - getting there, A bit late on the scene, but I still use my hotmail account (as well as a gmail), so personally I'm happy. gmail is the better of the two. now google does have that great newgroup search, which I do use. I flick back and forward between the G and live, and I don't see any lack in Live search. Use it for a week. solely.

"cross-platform web dev ecosystem".... err... does he know how MS works? seriously? we sell a PLATFORM. Windows rocks the world for two reasons. we take care of business - see ActiveDirectory, see Window Mobile 6 (or 6+.5). and 2) we have the most apps. thats how we work - we have one of the best dev environments, so devs write of Windows. Compare and contrast writing an App for Windows Mobile with... whatever. Compare with the iPhone - hahaha, just kidding, they don't have an open environment. How does a multi platform dev enviro help MS?

And mapping. we are again up there. personally I prefer live. If I want to map say, Ian, Nuvo Moda, and Mario's. I just copy-n-paste in each address, and it adds a pin for each. The G? it only seems to allow me one address at a time - now I'm sure there is a way to mark them all - but after a few minutes I gave up and went to live - it's just easier.

yeah I'm straw-manning this. But I'm tired to people 'dissing MS products without actually listing how they could be better. Office 12. I love it, worth my time relearning. Best thing since Office '95. Vista, not a revolution, but I'm excited to see how all the security work that went into goes - not that we any real competition on that front. Apple doesn't seem to get security. And Linux - is for nerds still. Yes, XP sucked in that way, but I'm expecting good things from Vista.

I'm reminded of this:
http://catandgirl.com/view.php?loc=230
In particular the last line.

>Where is the video RSS reader?
Personally. I don't care were it is. RSS is just information overload, At least in text form I can skim the titles for something interesting. Bring on XBox video rentals - now there is a product that will KICK some BUTT. It's video rental over IP, but the box is in the living room - where you want to watch your movies. so simple, but so brilliant!

Whats with comparing Channel 9 with PodTech? Channel 9 isn't supposed to be a money maker - it's evangelism. How does the MVP program make money? IT DOESN'T, BECAUSE IT DOENS'T PROVIDE VALUE THAT WAY. How about you compare something that uses media. say XBox or Zune. And don't go comparing numbers with Apple/Sony/Nintendo and saying we only have x% sharing of the total market - who cares?

</vent>

meh, that out of my system time for some coffee action. Anyways rorwie, hope you don't pull this down - a blog entry should provoke thought - and that you have done.
March 18, 2007 1:09 PM
 

Scott said:

"The Sun of bloggers"

Man was I confused. I thought Scoble was putting out a craptastic programming language and pimping a bunch of overpriced servers. ;)

P.S. I think it's Weekly World News that runs the Bat Boy stories.

I'm ashamed that I know that.
March 18, 2007 1:10 PM
 

Paul Murphy said:

Just blogged my thoughts, but to summarize:

Rory implied people are listening to Scoble and others and he's right, some (ok many) do, but there are plenty of other people in the world of buzz talking about stuff we’re doing right.  And if it makes Rory feel any better (it certainly does for me), the people building proactive and reactive strategies have actually gone in depth, built hundreds of models, and put together proposals to tweak our company that are significantly more than journalistic conjecture.

btw, not implying Scoble is conjecture, I don't know his blog well enough.
March 18, 2007 1:28 PM
 

Brad Wilson - The .NET Guy said:

March 18, 2007 1:55 PM
 

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee said:

"Rory, go ask Jeff Sandquist how many millions of dollars have been spent on Channel 9 and Channel 10. " - Somebody claimed on C9 that Channel9 cost in access of 500k and Charles denied it, falsely.

http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=288109

Charles went on and on about how C9 doesn't cost Microsoft a penny and how various posters that challenged him based on reality were "so, so wrong"

I think Rory is right though, that Scoble does have a formula for his posts.
You have to keep in mind though, that this is just Scoble's job. He writes his blog and does his videos, then he's done. Just like an IRS agent audits people ruthlessly, then goes home at the end of the day.

There's nothing wrong about doing a boilerplate, or shtick.

I actually think that Scoble is still a minion at heart and is actually trying to push Microsoft's live team to do better. They won't and he's wrong if that's the case, but I do think he is trying to do that.

I think Rory is trying to grabass-ishly capitalize on this to drive traffic to his blog, because his post brings absolutely nothing to the table at all.

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, not to be confused with dddddddddddddddd
March 18, 2007 2:53 PM
 

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee said:

http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=288109#288112

Here's a direct link. Anybody with common sense knows he's lying, but the staff over at C9 have a knack with denial.
March 18, 2007 2:55 PM
 

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee said:

"I actually think that Scoble is still a minion at heart and is actually trying to push Microsoft's live team to do better."

Seems like he's doing a horrible job in that case. Look at the number of comments when he does something like this. Does that tell you something?
March 18, 2007 3:15 PM
 

zillz said:

How come I know who Rory Blyth is and I have no idea who Robert Scoble is?  And how come when Rory's all mean and snarky and nasty it's funny and sometimes I learn stuff but when Robert is all mean and snarky and nasty I have no idea what he's so upset about or why I should learn about it and it isn't funny?

Huh?
March 18, 2007 3:25 PM
 

interesting said:

Looks like you hit a nerve. Twittering away while Rome burns.
March 18, 2007 3:28 PM
 

Neopoleon Techie Thoughts : Scoble - You missed the point said:

March 18, 2007 4:05 PM
 

Randy said:

@Robert: you're missing my point entirely.  There are ways to professionally point out short comings of one product or product line.  Through fact, satire, obnxious rantings - what have you.  It's quite another to come out and just blanket an entire "you suck" across everyone in the company, especially since you've worked with a number of the people that are still there.  Especially since you were once the self-dubbed poster-boy of the place.  *Especially* since said company helped make you who you are now: I just figured you'd be more greatful.  I mean, honestly... Gnomedex?  Think that got you recognition on news casts and local TV?  I've known plenty of people that have been in startups and grew them up and shipped hundreds of products.  Nameless people to the mass populous.

Simply put, do you honestly think you that well known in and out of blogging before your time at Microsoft?

Further, I think it's just a simple let down on my part: I thought you had more class than to act like this a) to former employers b) to former employees and c) to start "thumping" away like a common troll on someone else's post.
March 18, 2007 4:05 PM
 

Rory said:

Scoble -

"But, then, I also read 600+ feeds a day and pull out the best (Google's Matt Cutts says I read more feeds in Google Reader than anyone else alive). That's 1200 items a day on a typical day (more than 30,000 per month). You can see my favorites here: http://www.google.com/reader/shared/14480565058256660224"

I don't understand why you brought this up.

Is it an accomplishment? An argument? Showing off reading skills?

I honestly don't know.

"Quoted in dozens of magazines, newspapers, etc since leaving Microsoft. Forbes named me to its top 25 list. PC World named me to its top 50 list."

Yeah... that doesn't mean you're right.

It *does* make it look like you're scrambling to establish authority, but this doesn't actually do it.

There are plenty of people in this world who aren't named on any list but who are very intelligent and who do good work. They just aren't shameless self-promoters.

"Finally, since I've left I've done dozens of speeches and geek dinners all over the world."

Keep it up. You might eventually give more talks than I have.

"Before Microsoft, by the way, I joined a startup with seven people and helped it grow to about 200. Rory forgets to note that when he says I haven't built anything."

OK. You've told us about how much you read, but I think you might be mistaking skimming or scanning for actual reading. I imagine your comprehension level might be low given the amount of info you're trying to take in.

I only say this because I didn't claim you hadn't built *anything*.

Read the section again where I discussed Ezra Pound's philosophy on literary criticism.

I'd explain it here, but if you're really the reader you claim to be, then you ought to be able to plow through it quickly.

Like, one might say, a bull in a china shop.
March 18, 2007 4:19 PM
 

Rory said:

e -

"I think Rory is trying to grabass-ishly capitalize on this to drive traffic to his blog, because his post brings absolutely nothing to the table at all."

I'll settle this for you: No.

Look at the majority of my content and then ask yourself if getting any of Robert's readers would benefit me.

I try not to blog about tech crap anymore (largely because it attracts people like you), but I felt the need to say something this morning.

But, look! Here I am, justifying myself to a bunch of anonymous e's.

Never mind.
March 18, 2007 4:21 PM
 

Robert Scoble said:

Heheh, more ironies. Now I see Rory is threatening to spank me. Ahh, healthy egos abound I see! Hey, Rory, I just might like it! ;-)

>It's quite another to come out and just blanket an entire "you suck" across everyone in the company

I didn't say that. Go and read my original post. I wrote the Internet execution of Microsoft sucked. Which it does. No bleating by Rory is going to change that.

March 18, 2007 9:35 PM
 

mrpeabody said:

"more than 200 videos posted to http://www.scobleshow.com since I've left Microsoft (one even with Bill Gates, another with John Edwards, US presidential candidate, another with Jonathan Schwartz, CEO of Sun Microsystems, another with John Chambers, CEO of Cisco. Most of my interviews are with industry leaders from across the industry. That alone is a lot of value.

But, then, I also read 600+ feeds a day and pull out the best (Google's Matt Cutts says I read more feeds in Google Reader than anyone else alive). That's 1200 items a day on a typical day (more than 30,000 per month). You can see my favorites here:"

Gee all that work Robert and your company still can't make money.    

Value Robert, value as in generating profit for your company. Channel 9 is not trying to make money out of it's videos, you are and you are failing dismally. It must hurt your precious ego.

March 18, 2007 11:56 PM
 

Robert Scoble said:

>Gee all that work Robert and your company still can't make money.  

Where do you get that? Do you work at PodTech? We have 30 corporate sponsors. My sponsor has paid me a LOT more to do my show than Microsoft paid me.

I've never revealed our profit or loss statements on the Internet and won't. That's between our investors and us. But, we don't put 30 corporate sponsors on our site for nothing.

It's a startup. Some of Microsoft's businesses have lost billions. Xbox for one. Even its Internet business (er, MSN, er, Windows Live) doesn't make money and Microsoft's been at that for, what, 11 years now?

I sure haven't lost billions of investors' money.
March 19, 2007 12:20 AM
 

Erwin Blonk said:

Scoble said:
"Channel 9 IS advertising! With one advertiser. I think it's funny that you think it's something else. Demonstrates the power of a long-form unedited video. It fools you into thinking it's not commercial content."

Now wait a second..... I can vaguely remember the original C9 crew, including Robert Scoble, making it clear that C9 pretty much got freedom to do, ehm, stuff. Many a repsonse on the forums defended this against MS bashers who said that C9 was an MS advertising campaign, nothing more.

Was I wrong to trust these people on their word? If so, I was fooled by you, Robert. You did a good job. I´ll watch the Meet The Team introductory video again and might even search the forums for the mentioned comments.

Of course MS gains a lot by C9. I am foolish enough to think it is a nice idea to let employees put out stuff with some freedom. Under the username Bark at the Moon and more recently eblonk, you might find me saying just that, like the fool I am. You also find that I have no gripes with either MS or the others (I probably tried to set Rory ´right´ on this here and there).

A fool and his favorite websites or not easily parted. So those of Scoble, Rory and C9 stay right where they are in my list. I think it´s funny, Robert, very funny.
March 19, 2007 2:29 AM
 

Stephane Rodriguez said:


Rory,

I can't name one video from you worth a mention.

Robert Scoble's booted the whole C9 thing, and brought attention which I think at the time was creative and visionary.

Go take a look at what C9 is right now, the video PR department of Microsoft. Most often, videos ship the same day than the corresponding PR releases.

It's been a year or so that I have not seen a "developer" video posted at C9 (and yes, I am a developer).

Since C9 is supposed to be about developers, you deserve to be fired.

March 19, 2007 7:01 AM
 

Roberto J. Dohnert said:

I thought Channel 9 was for the "conversation".  The difference between Channel 9 and PodTech is this.  PodTech expects to turn a profit eventually, Microsoft never expected to turn a profit with Channel 9.

" Rory, go ask Jeff Sandquist how many millions of dollars have been spent on Channel 9 and Channel 10.

Now, can you prove that they make money for Microsoft? "

I dont think the internet execution sucks.  I think what Microsoft lacks is individuality or creativity in their internet product.  To many cheifs not enough indians. I met a Microsoft guy in NC who is a product manager for Microsoft.  To many Product Managers and VP's.  Time to lighten the load.

" I didn't say that. Go and read my original post. I wrote the Internet execution of Microsoft sucked. Which it does. No bleating by Rory is going to change that. "

I can.  Lets not go on personal attacks just because one of your heros was offended.  Rory does a great job for Channel 9.  Is he a Scoble?  He was never intended to be and I thinks its a damn shame people keep trying to compare Apples and Pomegranates.  rory has a different style from Scoble which I for one appreciate.

" Rory,

I can't name one video from you worth a mention."



March 19, 2007 7:59 AM
 

chris hollander said:

LOUD NOISES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






lol, seriously, the ego inflation on all sides of this argument are stunning.  scoble: never use the word "shipped" again.  rory: draw more cartoons.
March 19, 2007 8:31 AM
 

Robert Scoble said:

>Now wait a second..... I can vaguely remember the original C9 crew, including Robert Scoble, making it clear that C9 pretty much got freedom to do, ehm, stuff. Many a repsonse on the forums defended this against MS bashers who said that C9 was an MS advertising campaign, nothing more.

We had (and hopefully still have) the freedom to do a lot of stuff. We weren't controlled by PR or marketing. That was the point we were trying to make back then.

But it's definitely corporate paid content. You don't see many pro-Apple or pro-Linux videos on Channel 9, do you? Of course not. We knew who was paying our way and Channel 9 was developed as an evangelism tool.

It also isn't committee based advertising like what you'll see on TV. It was unedited, unfiltered, conversational content.
March 19, 2007 9:02 AM
 

The Blog of Jonathan Sampson » Blog Archives » Video Blog #0010 - Scoble vs Blythe: Battle of the Bloggers :: Video Tutorials in PHP, MySQL, CSS, JavaScript, XAML, Adobe Photoshop, and more! said:

March 19, 2007 11:44 AM
 

paul said:

Rory, how about a video of you sticking pins into a Scoblizer Voodo doll?  
March 19, 2007 12:01 PM
 

Erwin Blonk said:

Torn between two lovers...... well, not really but it´s my way of saying that I actually like both Scoble and Rory. Both are personalities and I take the good, the bad and the ugly.
Both have done great

"You don't see many pro-Apple or pro-Linux videos on Channel 9, do you? Of course not. We knew who was paying our way and Channel 9 was developed as an evangelism tool."

It is, however, not hidden. You know where they come from. I see it as a look inside Microsoft and I use my own judgement.
Not being a developer, you´ll find me in the Coffeehouse forum, defending either Microsoft or Linux, depending on who I think gets undeserved flack. Sometimes I attack (I prefer to think of it as raising critical questions, but that´s just me).
Actually I try to stay away from it, not wasting time because convincing people is, in general, unsuccesful and neither a forte of me nor something I want to excel in. It´s hard enough to figure out what is going on without throwing in opinions as fact. It´s just people seeing problems that aren´t there that burns my toast (for the record: Linux does work in a business environment on the desktop and Windows doesn´t kill you).

But where was I? C9 is biased because the makers love Microsoft and/or think it´s good for job security. Either way, it´s more fun and more unbiased than anything Steve Ballmer blurts out (he is the most un-Microsoft guy on the planet). It is advertising the way I like it. For my pro-Mac or pro-Linux content I go elsewhere.
March 19, 2007 1:16 PM
 

Daniel Larson said:

Personally, I *like* Scoble. I hung out with him for a few minutes at the last MVP summit. He's a good guy. And I'm glad he's talking trash-- hopefully someone will listen.

Microsoft-- I hope they're listening. I was at the MVP summit, and it was actually a 2 way dialog. They told us how cool they were and we responded with "and you suck because of ______." Whenever people can listen to WHY they suck and they listen, it's a good thing. Now, do I tell Google how they suck? No, because I really don't care.
March 19, 2007 3:22 PM
 

Tee said:

Does Scoble honestly just trapse around the internet LOOKING for things to argue with other people about?

Someone needs a hobby...
March 19, 2007 6:32 PM
 

Rory said:

Daniel -

"Personally, I *like* Scoble. I hung out with him for a few minutes at the last MVP summit. He's a good guy. And I'm glad he's talking trash-- hopefully someone will listen."

No offense (seriously), but I feel like Scoble is part of the reason people seem to think that "talking trash" is a good way to go when notifying someone of a problem.

Somewhere along the way, the notion that simply reporting a problem in a polite way is effective got lost.

Why does someone have to "talk trash" to tell Microsoft about a problem? And, who's to say the person is *right* about what they're saying?

You said you're glad that he's "talking trash" because someone might hear him - stop and ask yourself *why* you're glad. Are you assuming that he's right about the problem? Do you think it's right to whine so much without providing a solution? Is it possible that one reason there's no solution is that his complaint was so broad and general that there *isn't* a solution? He didn't attack an actual problem - he hit a subject so wide that of *course* there will be a problem or two somewhere beneath it.

His complaint was about as abstract and useful as saying "There's crime in America - get rid of it."

Is that helpful?

Maybe.

But I doubt it. It doesn't give anybody a place to start. America's a big place. "Crime" is a broad term that encompasses many specific issues.

Would you be glad if he had said *that*? Because it wouldn't make one bit of difference. The people who need to know about the problem already do. Whining about it won't help.

"Microsoft-- I hope they're listening."

Microsoft is another broad subject. Referring to the company as a single entity doesn't make much sense. There are tens of thousands of people working at MS, and, while some will listen, it's likely that some will not.

We're people. We do people-ish things. We aren't perfect.

But some of us are trying.

"I was at the MVP summit, and it was actually a 2 way dialog. They told us how cool they were and we responded with 'and you suck because of ______.' Whenever people can listen to WHY they suck and they listen, it's a good thing."

I totally disagree.

I think it's rude to respond in the way you say the MVPs did.

If the company gives you this status, gives you some perks, and flies you out to Redmond to get a peek at the future and get access to the people who run the place, there are better ways of getting your point across than just telling them they suck.

Trust me. At the 2004 MVP Summit, I told Ballmer, in so many words, that Microsoft's strategy for dealing with open source competitors sucked.

If I could go back, I'd do it very differently. Here was the CEO of the company, and I was treating him like dirt.

Do you think he went away and told everybody about what I said?

Maybe. But what I deserved was a "You're an asshole, kid. NEXt."

He was very patient. I was very rude. In all, it was pointless.

"Now, do I tell Google how they suck? No, because I really don't care."

Yeah, but you don't *have* to phrase your complaints in the form of "You suck because..."

Believe me. I understand that it's the popular mode of behavior for excited MVPs who are put in front of a VP or whatever, but the whole rude thing *isn't* the only way. It isn't the best way, either. Why create friction with these people when they've taken time out of their schedules to come see *you* and listen to your concerns? Unless you're truly insulted, it's just going to create bad blood.

That's my opinion, anyway. Developed from plenty of experience in the "You suck because..." department.

There are a *lot* of things in that vein I wish I could do over :|
March 19, 2007 10:08 PM
 

Rory said:

Tee -

"Does Scoble honestly just trapse around the internet LOOKING for things to argue with other people about?"

Well.

Kind of. Yeah :|

"Someone needs a hobby..."

Someone needs to write me back!

(No pressure.)

(But, seriously - pressure.)
March 19, 2007 10:09 PM
 

PhilAssCoel said:

i sell internet marketing crap....read me.

[url=http://www.internetmarketingtechniques.net/]me internet marketing guru[/url]

Phil "Jackass" Coel

[url=http://www.internetmarketingtechniques.net/]me internet marketing guru[/url]
March 20, 2007 8:35 AM
 

Daniel Larson said:

Rory,

Good point! I was actually a little more respectful... perhaps I should have stated it here as such. I did tell them that that their product sucked in a certain category, and asked why they did a halfway job with it. They have so many great products, yet a lot of them are not quite fully baked. So, thanks for the note, you're right. But they do need to hear what parts of their product suck and where they can address the community's concerns.
March 20, 2007 10:10 AM
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